Pirate Manifesto IRC meeting 20080710

(19:54:02) Aiarakoa_ES: hello
(19:54:21) Arek_pl: hi everyone
(19:54:26) Aiarakoa_ES: hi arek
(19:54:30) Aiarakoa_ES: are you arkadiusz?
(19:55:11) Arek_pl: yes Carlos
(19:55:45) Aiarakoa_ES: fine :)
(19:55:48) Aiarakoa_ES: glad to see you
(19:55:58) Roderick: good morning
(19:56:23) Arek_pl: yeah, you too. a lot of time has left since berlin
(19:57:20) Arek_pl: first of all i've got technical question
(19:57:39) Aiarakoa_ES: good morning roderick
(19:57:49) Aiarakoa_ES: and you're the australian guy?
(19:57:50) Arek_pl: why this meeting is in friday evening, when a lot of people start parting?
(19:57:58) Aiarakoa_ES: it's not friday
(19:58:00) Aiarakoa_ES: but thursday
(19:59:47) Aiarakoa_ES: I mean, today's thursday :)
(19:59:49) Roderick: yep Arek. Only just restarting the party here, so I'm not sure how much I can contribute.
(19:59:53) Arek_pl: whoops :) i'm holidays now :P but nevertheless there are holidays - so many evenings during a week is going sth
(19:59:59) Aiarakoa_ES: xDDD
(20:00:02) Aiarakoa_ES: nice, Arkadiusz
(20:00:08) Aiarakoa_ES: you're doing the right thing :D
(20:00:17) Roderick: its Friday morning here. 4am.
(20:00:20) Aiarakoa_ES: well Roderick
(20:00:22) Arek_pl: :)
(20:00:34) Aiarakoa_ES: if your party does already have some defined stances
(20:00:49) Aiarakoa_ES: you can display them here: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance#Australian_pirate_party
(20:00:57) Aiarakoa_ES: the same for Arkadiusz and Partia Piratow
(20:00:58) Aiarakoa_ES: here
(20:01:04) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance#Partia_Pirat.C3.B3w
(20:01:14) Arek_pl: i've done it
(20:01:19) Aiarakoa_ES: cool :D
(20:01:31) Aiarakoa_ES: I was translating a PIRATA wiki page for PPI
(20:01:48) Aiarakoa_ES: (we've launched the signatures collection campaign for European Election
(20:01:59) Aiarakoa_ES: we need 15.000 signatures to be allowed to concur)
(20:02:24) Aiarakoa_ES: so I didn't check that international page during the last minutes :$
(20:02:29) Arek_pl: lucky you. in Poland we need over 100.000
(20:02:34) Aiarakoa_ES: :O
(20:02:50) Arek_pl: btw. since we can collect it?
(20:03:01) Aiarakoa_ES: depends on polish laws
(20:03:05) Arek_pl: since when*
(20:03:08) Aiarakoa_ES: in Spain there is no restriction
(20:03:10) osh_DK: bout 70000 for DK - but because of extra checking and confirmations we need 2-3 times as many
(20:03:15) Aiarakoa_ES: we started one month ago
(20:03:56) Aiarakoa_ES: but we just published the campaign last monday
(20:04:13) Aiarakoa_ES: we expect to collect many signatures when the academic year at university starts
(20:07:32) Aiarakoa_ES: I can see here people from Spain
(20:07:34) Aiarakoa_ES: Netherlands
(20:07:36) Aiarakoa_ES: Poland
(20:07:42) Aiarakoa_ES: Finland (though away from keyboard)
(20:07:46) Aiarakoa_ES: Denmark
(20:07:50) Aiarakoa_ES: Australia
(20:07:54) Aiarakoa_ES: maybe Sweden
(20:08:08) Aiarakoa_ES: are there any austrian and/or german folks here?
(20:08:38) osh_DK: The SE people are probably busy with an important local political event
(20:09:31) Aiarakoa_ES: which event?
(20:09:33) osh_DK: But Amelia filled in the SE viewpoint on the wiki page
(20:09:43) Aiarakoa_ES: yes, I saw it
(20:09:48) osh_DK: I think it is called Almedalsveckan
(20:10:09) Aiarakoa_ES: though today we were intended to set out the deadlines for Stage One and Stage Two
(20:10:18) Aiarakoa_ES: and the voting system for Stage Two amendments
(20:10:33) Aiarakoa_ES: so the more parties attending here, better :)
(20:13:41) Aiarakoa_ES: so let's gonna start?
(20:13:52) Arek_pl: yeah
(20:14:00) Aiarakoa_ES: last thursday
(20:14:19) Aiarakoa_ES: it was said that was preferrable to not wait until december to set Stage Two's deadline
(20:14:44) Aiarakoa_ES: to be able to have some margin and to have earlier the Manifesto available
(20:14:49) Aiarakoa_ES: so
(20:14:58) Aiarakoa_ES: which are your proposals regarding both deadlines?
(20:15:14) DracoFlameus [draco@pp-2A764BCA.public.t-mobile.at] entered the room.
(20:16:27) osh_DK: How do you defines the two stages? 1) Analysis - draft text, 2) Discussions - amendments ?
(20:17:07) Aiarakoa_ES: that's it
(20:17:16) DracoFlameus is now known as Draco_AUT
(20:17:23) Aiarakoa_ES: it was the definition made in Berlin
(20:17:27) Aiarakoa_ES: hi Draco :)
(20:17:31) Draco_AUT: hey
(20:17:47) Draco_AUT: sry for being late, I didnt get the info in time that our other member couldn't attend
(20:18:04) Aiarakoa_ES: don't worry, the most important thing is you being able to attend :)
(20:18:10) Aiarakoa_ES: by the way
(20:18:11) Aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance#Piratenpartei_.C3.96sterreichs
(20:18:20) Aiarakoa_ES: if you were able to fill this briefing :)
(20:18:41) Aiarakoa_ES: with your briefing we'd have 9 out of 12 :)
(20:20:02) Draco_AUT: yeah we were already discussing this, as the hole board has to approve the proper translation... and as I already wrote we have re-elections.. so its all a bit chaotic at the moment... but hopefully we will get this together this week, sry
(20:20:56) sikevux [chatzilla@pp-9A8FE74C.tbcn.telia.com] entered the room.
(20:21:50) Aiarakoa_ES: don't worry
(20:22:07) Aiarakoa_ES: hi sikevux
(20:22:10) Roderick: I'll attempt to fill in our section there this week too. It'll be very sparse and basic, but it'll be there.
(20:22:17) Aiarakoa_ES: thanks roderick :)
(20:22:23) sikevux: Hello Aiarakoa_ES
(20:22:28) Aiarakoa_ES: sparse and basic sound good from a forming pirate party
(20:22:30) Aiarakoa_ES: :)
(20:22:42) Aiarakoa_ES: it will be profitable information for sure :D
(20:22:51) Aiarakoa_ES: where are you from, sikevux?
(20:23:33) sikevux: Aiarakoa_ES: Sweden
(20:25:02) Aiarakoa_ES: ok
(20:25:09) Aiarakoa_ES: so
(20:25:19) Aiarakoa_ES: any proposals for Stage One's deadline?
(20:25:27) Aiarakoa_ES: today's 10th of July
(20:25:41) Aiarakoa_ES: any proposal should consider to leave enough time
(20:25:48) Aiarakoa_ES: both for the First Draft to be completed
(20:26:00) Aiarakoa_ES: and for the amendments process to be run properly
(20:26:51) Arek_pl: i suggest end of the August
(20:28:13) Aiarakoa_ES: any other suggestions?
(20:28:28) Aiarakoa_ES: 31th of August is the currently only proposal
(20:28:44) Aiarakoa_ES: sorry
(20:28:55) Aiarakoa_ES: 31st of August (ought to write it properly :) )
(20:30:13) Arek_pl: any other proposals? ok. voted :)
(20:30:35) Arek_pl: c'mon guys. let's hurry up. 
(20:30:45) osh_DK: Stage two will probably take a long time, and we should take that into consideration
(20:31:08) Draco_AUT: Yeah let's try it with 31st August, if we see that it won't work there is always a possibility of adding 2 weeks or so
(20:32:25) osh_DK: Let's aim for Aug 31st for stage one
(20:32:26) Aiarakoa_ES: so, 31st of August with a 2-week margin
(20:32:34) Aiarakoa_ES: ?
(20:32:48) Aiarakoa_ES: or simply 31st of August?
(20:33:24) osh_DK: A margin doesn't make much sense - if we are not finished at that time we are not finished
(20:34:37) Aiarakoa_ES: actually I think Ole's right
(20:35:03) Aiarakoa_ES: whatever we have by 31st of August -or the deadline we set-, it will be the First Draft
(20:35:19) Aiarakoa_ES: and we'll have Stage Two's amendments to fix whatever we think that has to be fixed
(20:35:36) Draco_AUT: ok
(20:35:41) Aiarakoa_ES: of course, the better First Draft results, the less amendments will be required :)
(20:36:10) Aiarakoa_ES: let me check one thing
(20:36:40) Aiarakoa_ES: ES - NL - AT - DK - SE - AU - PL
(20:36:48) Aiarakoa_ES: do I miss anyone here?
(20:36:55) Aiarakoa_ES: attending this session, I mean
(20:37:28) Aiarakoa_ES: do anyone of those representatives support 31st of August as deadline for Stage One?
(20:37:30) ***Aiarakoa_ES does
(20:37:44) ***osh_DK does
(20:37:58) Aiarakoa_ES: draco_AUT ?
(20:38:01) Aiarakoa_ES: Arek_pl ?
(20:38:03) Aiarakoa_ES: Core-TX ?
(20:38:09) Aiarakoa_ES: sikevux ?
(20:38:11) Aiarakoa_ES: Roderick ?
(20:38:28) Aiarakoa_ES: well actually Arek does, as he was the one who proposed it :)
(20:38:33) Aiarakoa_ES: and the rest?
(20:38:39) ***sikevux does
(20:39:24) Gagis [Gagis@pp-B0F4696E.japo.fi] entered the room.
(20:39:50) Arek_pl: damn. my internet cafe is closing in 15min
(20:40:00) Gagis left the room (quit: Quit: Lähdössä).
(20:40:18) Arek_pl: what important subject do we have to talk about?
(20:40:23) Arek_pl: subjects*
(20:40:34) Roderick: that sounds feasible, and provides for ample time for parties to discuss their contributions etc.
(20:40:40) Aiarakoa_ES: votig system for Stage Two
(20:40:51) Aiarakoa_ES: it's an important issue
(20:41:05) Aiarakoa_ES: in Berlin it was decided that amendments would be made by each pirate party
(20:41:11) Aiarakoa_ES: and that each pirate party would decide
(20:41:22) Aiarakoa_ES: how to allow its members to propose the amendments
(20:41:27) Aiarakoa_ES: (as a party, or individually)
(20:41:41) Aiarakoa_ES: the thing is, to decide how amendments are going to be voted
(20:41:42) Aiarakoa_ES: rules
(20:41:44) Aiarakoa_ES: quorums
(20:41:47) Aiarakoa_ES: majorities
(20:41:53) Aiarakoa_ES: those kind of issues
(20:42:49) osh_DK: consensus on the final document is very important
(20:42:56) Aiarakoa_ES: of course
(20:43:08) Arek_pl: hm. how is it in european parlament at the moment?
(20:43:21) Arek_pl: proporcional to population?
(20:43:35) Aiarakoa_ES: in european parliament? or in european council?
(20:43:44) Arek_pl: no. it'd be to much calculations
(20:44:01) Aiarakoa_ES: because in EP, each country has assigned an amount of MPs
(20:44:01) Arek_pl: in both?
(20:44:11) Aiarakoa_ES: and later all those MPs, together, have to vote 
(20:44:31) Aiarakoa_ES: it's in European Commission where the countries' issue matters
(20:46:27) Arek_pl: ok. so it'd be to much work
(20:46:38) osh_DK: How about one vote per national PP?
(20:46:51) Aiarakoa_ES: it may work
(20:46:57) Arek_pl: was that subject mentioned in upsalla?
(20:47:11) osh_DK: We need to be near consensus anyway
(20:47:13) Arek_pl: what do propositions do we have one?
(20:47:19) Aiarakoa_ES: no, I think Pirate Manifesto and voting systems within PPI weren't mentioned at all
(20:47:24) Arek_pl: and which one is popular now?
(20:47:37) osh_DK: The Pirate Manifesto was only briefly mentioned in Uppsala
(20:47:46) Aiarakoa_ES: propositions on what, Arkadiusz?
(20:47:52) Arek_pl: yeah. Ole is right
(20:48:22) Aiarakoa_ES: one vote by country I think is fine for PIRATA
(20:48:30) Arek_pl: maybe if at most one party is against, it;s voted for yes?
(20:48:35) Arek_pl: what do you think?>
(20:48:38) Aiarakoa_ES: each pirate party would internally decide about the amendments
(20:49:01) Aiarakoa_ES: that's another issue, Arkadiusz
(20:49:09) Aiarakoa_ES: actually there are two main issues regarding that
(20:49:09) osh_DK: One vote per PP does not mean that the PP members cannot be heard - the national PPs can have internal voting
(20:49:13) Aiarakoa_ES: one is the quorum
(20:49:16) Aiarakoa_ES: other is the majority
(20:49:43) Aiarakoa_ES: the quorum means how many pirate parties are required to vote
(20:49:51) Aiarakoa_ES: to consider valid an amendment's voting
(20:50:06) Aiarakoa_ES: the majority means which % of pirate parties supporting an amendment is required
(20:50:11) Aiarakoa_ES: to have that amendment approved
(20:50:28) Aiarakoa_ES: for the majority issue, as Arek comments
(20:50:41) Aiarakoa_ES: there are two options: the veto system used in EC
(20:50:46) Arek_pl: what about other parties?
(20:50:49) Aiarakoa_ES: or, instead, the consenssus system commented by Ole
(20:50:56) Arek_pl: what do you prefer?
(20:51:20) Aiarakoa_ES: (considering that at the end each party would consider the Second Draft as a whole to decide whether to sign it or not)
(20:51:23) Aiarakoa_ES: what do you mean, Arkadiusz?
(20:51:39) Aiarakoa_ES: which is your proposal?
(20:52:54) osh_DK: Some kind of veto would be good - both for voting, and also to indicate for amendments that it is absolutely needed for a national PP to be able to approve the final document.
(20:53:44) Arek_pl: my is "nearly veto". so if two parties are against or more, so it's not voted
(20:53:51) Arek_pl: i think i'd be fair
(20:54:49) Arek_pl: so even if one party is defenitly against but it can convinced at least one party so it's not voted for.
(20:55:06) osh_DK: I'd prefer four votes: Yes, no, abstain and veto
(20:55:21) Aiarakoa_ES: actually no means vetoing
(20:55:35) Aiarakoa_ES: at least in arkadiusz' terms
(20:55:36) osh_DK: and only one veto vote can kill an amendment - we need all parties to sign the final document
(20:55:59) Aiarakoa_ES: in PIRATA Statute's development process
(20:56:08) Arek_pl: hmm. i'll think about it with board, but now i've to go
(20:56:11) Aiarakoa_ES: we allowed to merge amendments
(20:56:16) Aiarakoa_ES: ok arkadiusz :)
(20:56:23) Aiarakoa_ES: I mean
(20:56:32) Aiarakoa_ES: if for a concrete paragraph there are several amendments
(20:56:38) osh_DK: see you, Arkadiusz
(20:56:47) Aiarakoa_ES: each amendment would be one of several options to be voted
(20:56:54) Aiarakoa_ES: e.g.
(20:57:08) Aiarakoa_ES: "there won't be any colour for PPI flag"
(20:57:17) Aiarakoa_ES: amendment 1: "PPI flag will be black"
(20:57:23) Aiarakoa_ES: amendment 2: "PPI flag will be white"
(20:57:24) Arek_pl: ok. so see you everone
(20:57:26) Arek_pl left the room (quit: Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 3.0/2008052906]).
(20:57:33) Aiarakoa_ES: amendment 3: "PPI flag will be orange"
(20:57:40) Aiarakoa_ES: so the voting was, for PIRATA Statute
(20:57:54) Aiarakoa_ES: Option 1: "no colour"
(20:57:58) Aiarakoa_ES: Option 2: "black"
(20:58:01) Aiarakoa_ES: Option 3: "white"
(20:58:04) Aiarakoa_ES: Option 4: "Orange"
(20:58:18) Aiarakoa_ES: Option 5: None of the above mentioned
(20:58:40) osh_DK: What is option 5? Like abstain?
(20:58:44) Aiarakoa_ES: no
(20:58:54) Aiarakoa_ES: option 5 means to reject all options
(20:59:00) Aiarakoa_ES: is like YES/NO
(20:59:12) Aiarakoa_ES: though substituting "YES" with four options, 1-4
(20:59:40) osh_DK: but 1 if "no amendment"?
(20:59:47) osh_DK: is, i mean
(20:59:53) Aiarakoa_ES: yes, Option 1 is "no amendment"
(21:00:25) osh_DK: so the fifth option is for removing the paragraph?
(21:00:27) Aiarakoa_ES: well there can be any pirate party which doesn't like current text
(21:01:18) Aiarakoa_ES: not exactly, but ... something like that
(21:01:33) Aiarakoa_ES: it means that none of the existing options fit with the voter preferences
(21:01:48) Aiarakoa_ES: (thus preferring to discuss that part again)
(21:02:16) Aiarakoa_ES: it's not an option commonly to be chosen
(21:02:16) osh_DK: Ok, so like abstain, but indicating that this should be discussed more?
(21:02:24) Aiarakoa_ES: yes
(21:02:43) Aiarakoa_ES: it's like an abstantion which also means disagreement with current options, that's it :)
(21:02:58) Aiarakoa_ES: but as I say it's not an option commonly to be chosen
(21:03:01) Aiarakoa_ES: as the normal thing is
(21:03:08) Aiarakoa_ES: to stick with current text
(21:03:15) Aiarakoa_ES: or to choose one of the alternative proposals
(21:03:37) Aiarakoa_ES: however, we felt that the abstention/disagreement option had to be given to voters
(21:03:59) Aiarakoa_ES: it was because of Spanish Constitution Amendment procedure
(21:04:06) Aiarakoa_ES: there are only two options:
(21:04:22) Aiarakoa_ES: accept the amendment or stick with the current text, no more options allowed for citizens
(21:04:42) Aiarakoa_ES: so we wanted to give voters the chance of saying, "none of the above mentioned, please discuss it again"
(21:05:11) Aiarakoa_ES: well, this is a complex question, isn't it? :)
(21:05:20) Aiarakoa_ES: vetoes, majorities, quorums
(21:05:28) Aiarakoa_ES: though a very important one
(21:05:54) Aiarakoa_ES: as one day will have to vote the amendments, and we ought to have clear how to vote them in advance
(21:06:51) osh_DK: I wonder if it would be best with two rounds of voting: One initial with simple majority, and another with a higher majority needed to change things
(21:07:25) Aiarakoa_ES: what would the first round be meant for?
(21:08:07) osh_DK: Getting the draft closer to the final result, and making it easier to change things
(21:08:31) Victor-Y left the room (quit: Quit: ...).
(21:08:49) osh_DK: And then finally a round where it is harder to change things, but where we can get something important/required for some parties fixed
(21:09:34) osh_DK: The participation in the process is probably growing as we get near the end
(21:09:55) Aiarakoa_ES: oh well
(21:10:05) Aiarakoa_ES: that's the aim for Stage One
(21:10:17) Aiarakoa_ES: having the draft closer to the final result
(21:10:29) Aiarakoa_ES: polishing it as much as possible
(21:10:41) Aiarakoa_ES: and inded
(21:10:43) osh_DK: yes, that could be done in stage 1
(21:10:49) Aiarakoa_ES: the participation will grow as we get near the end
(21:11:01) Aiarakoa_ES: that's why is so important to accurately decide
(21:11:07) Aiarakoa_ES: the decision making process for Stage 2
(21:11:11) Aiarakoa_ES: i.e., the voting rules
(21:11:41) osh_DK: but we shoulld publicize the drafts widely, and even send non-finished stage 1 drafts to the ppi list
(21:11:49) Aiarakoa_ES: to allow every pirate party which joins the procedure, to join a process as most democratic as possible
(21:11:53) Aiarakoa_ES: sure
(21:12:01) Aiarakoa_ES: it's going to be a hard work :)
(21:12:11) Aiarakoa_ES: but it will be worth :)
(21:14:18) osh_DK: But in this case, I don't see the use for an "abstain, but want more discussion" option, as most discussions should have taken place already
(21:14:48) osh_DK: Why discuss without another round of voting?
(21:15:07) Aiarakoa_ES: usually
(21:15:13) Aiarakoa_ES: such option won't be chosen
(21:15:26) Aiarakoa_ES: because of having done things properly
(21:16:11) Aiarakoa_ES: it's just like a thermometer
(21:16:18) Aiarakoa_ES: to check if something went wrong
(21:16:51) Aiarakoa_ES: but if actually all the current options for a given amendment are the required ones, no one will choose that option :)
(21:16:54) osh_DK: what i really worry about is some national party coming late in the process with something basic that needs to be changed for them to be able to approve the Pirate Manifesto
(21:17:23) Aiarakoa_ES: when you say worried
(21:17:36) Aiarakoa_ES: you mean that you're worried about that party using the "none of the above mentioned" clause?
(21:18:25) Aiarakoa_ES: (thus trying to retake discussion about that concrete issue)
(21:18:27) Roderick: what is the ultimate time frame? by which date should the manifesto be complete?
(21:18:29) osh_DK: No, more that they were slow in participating earlier, and now have some blocking issue
(21:18:42) Aiarakoa_ES: the idea roderick is to have it ready for Saint Petersburg
(21:18:51) Roderick: which is in december?
(21:18:58) Aiarakoa_ES: though last week people wanted to have the manifesto ready for an earlier date
(21:19:00) Aiarakoa_ES: e.g. november
(21:19:03) Roderick: ah
(21:19:08) Aiarakoa_ES: to have some margin
(21:19:15) osh_DK: Or whereever the 4th conference will be held - we havent heard form PP RU in a long time
(21:19:21) osh_DK: from, i mean
(21:19:37) Aiarakoa_ES: oh whereever? does it mean that location may change?
(21:19:47) Aiarakoa_ES: are there alternative venues?
(21:20:11) Roderick: somewhere warmer hopefully
(21:20:13) osh_DK: If we do not hear from some of the russians - yes, we may have to change the location
(21:20:20) Aiarakoa_ES: I would propose Spain though
(21:20:34) Aiarakoa_ES: we in PIRATA aren't sure of having enough capability to held such important meeting
(21:20:36) Aiarakoa_ES: I mean
(21:20:43) ***osh_DK has never been in Spain
(21:20:44) Aiarakoa_ES: giving room for attendants
(21:20:46) Aiarakoa_ES: etc
(21:20:54) Aiarakoa_ES: finding a proper site
(21:21:08) Aiarakoa_ES: we would like to, but we aren't sure of being ready to
(21:21:19) Aiarakoa_ES: Berlin and Uppsala meetings have been carefully organised
(21:21:30) Aiarakoa_ES: and we wouldn't want to disappoint attending people
(21:22:02) Aiarakoa_ES: also we don't have funds to give free accomodation to attending pirates
(21:22:06) Aiarakoa_ES: :/
(21:22:30) ***Aiarakoa_ES thinks we should attack an Spanish Galleon to get some funds xD
(21:22:48) osh_DK: The "free accomodation" has never needed funds - just local members able to lend some room
(21:23:21) Aiarakoa_ES: well
(21:23:27) Aiarakoa_ES: I can re-check the issue with PIRATA members
(21:23:38) Aiarakoa_ES: there are two possible venues, in Sevilla and Barcelona
(21:24:15) Aiarakoa_ES: if they still feel not prepared to, there will be no chance for Spain to become the site for 4th Conference
(21:24:16) Aiarakoa_ES: however
(21:24:20) Aiarakoa_ES: if they change their mood
(21:24:25) Aiarakoa_ES: according to your words
(21:24:33) Aiarakoa_ES: [21:28] <osh_DK> The "free accomodation" has never needed funds - just local members able to lend some room
(21:24:38) Aiarakoa_ES: I'll notice you :)
(21:24:45) osh_DK: :-)
(21:25:09) Aiarakoa_ES: and returning to what does we have summoned here
(21:25:18) Aiarakoa_ES: what about Stage Two deadline
(21:25:25) Aiarakoa_ES: we may decide it now
(21:25:31) Aiarakoa_ES: and use the following week
(21:25:39) Aiarakoa_ES: to discuss the voting issue internally within each pirate party
(21:25:52) Aiarakoa_ES: to be able to have some background and decide it next week
(21:26:05) Aiarakoa_ES: next week we would be able to start developint the Manifesto's First Draft
(21:26:12) osh_DK: let's decide later on stage 2 deadline - when we know if we can keep the deadline for stage 1
(21:26:26) Aiarakoa_ES: I suggest something
(21:26:42) Aiarakoa_ES: use the Draco's proposal for a two-week margin
(21:27:02) Aiarakoa_ES: and set Stage Two deadline as two months from Stage One's
(21:27:03) Aiarakoa_ES: so
(21:27:18) Aiarakoa_ES: if we finish First Draft by 31st of August
(21:27:37) Aiarakoa_ES: we would set as deadline for allowing amendments by 31st of October
(21:27:45) Aiarakoa_ES: voting the amendments by 15th of November
(21:27:51) osh_DK: or perhaps a bit more margin - like if we say Nov 15th for now, but keep discussions of that deadline open
(21:28:20) Aiarakoa_ES: if we, as you anticipate, fail with having First Draft before 31st of August
(21:28:32) Aiarakoa_ES: then we would have a new deadline at 15th of September
(21:28:40) Aiarakoa_ES: moving Stage Two's deadline to 15th of november
(21:28:46) Aiarakoa_ES: and voting the amendments by 30th of november
(21:28:58) Aiarakoa_ES: I like Draco's proposal, understood this way
(21:29:01) Aiarakoa_ES: what do you think?
(21:29:17) osh_DK: Id prefer to start voting at Nov 1th, and close voting at Nov 15th
(21:29:31) Aiarakoa_ES: it's ok for me
(21:29:35) Aiarakoa_ES: a 15-day window
(21:29:48) osh_DK: that gives us one month to come up with amendments
(21:29:53) Aiarakoa_ES: instead of an election date
(21:30:05) Aiarakoa_ES: so
(21:30:15) Aiarakoa_ES: accepting the 15-day voting window
(21:30:21) Aiarakoa_ES: what do you think about Draco's proposal
(21:30:35) Aiarakoa_ES: of having 31st of august as Stage One's deadline, with a 2-week margin?
(21:30:54) Aiarakoa_ES: and setting Stage Two's deadline as two months after Stage One's?
(21:31:27) osh_DK: Sounds fine to me, though we should not talk about a margin, as this could just cause more delays
(21:33:13) Aiarakoa_ES: ok then how do you suggest to manage the margin issue?
(21:33:14) osh_DK: I say just a deadline for Stage 1, then a month to propose amendments, and ½14 days to vote
(21:33:33) Aiarakoa_ES: 1/2 14 what does it mean?
(21:34:47) Aiarakoa_ES: also, if Stage Two is going to last just a month, I think we should shift two weeks Stage One's deadline, until 15th of September
(21:34:51) Charris left the room (quit: Ping timeout).
(21:37:45) osh_DK: Sorry, I mistyped ½
(21:37:49) osh_DK: brb
(21:37:59) You are now known as osh_away
(21:39:42) Aiarakoa_ES: me too
(21:39:48) Aiarakoa_ES is now known as aiaraIsDinner
(21:39:54) aiaraIsDinner is now known as aiaraIsHavingDinner
(21:49:42) You are now known as osh_DK
(21:50:22) ***osh_DK was on the phone with Arkadiusz - he would like me to send a log of the chat here tonight
(22:02:36) Apachez [apachez@pp-3E068A2C.home.staertesjoen.se] entered the room.
(22:02:42) Apachez left the room.
(22:02:51) ***osh_DK just edited the wiki page with deadlines: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance#When
(22:03:10) osh_DK: Just a proposal
(22:10:06) aiaraIsHavingDinner: let me check it
(22:10:08) aiaraIsHavingDinner is now known as aiarakoa_ES
(22:10:15) aiarakoa_ES: em
(22:10:16) K`Tetch_us [blah@pp-C23DACB1.asm.bellsouth.net] entered the room.
(22:10:20) aiarakoa_ES: Ole
(22:10:33) aiarakoa_ES: it should better be placed here
(22:10:33) aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto
(22:10:34) K`Tetch_us: did I mis the meeting?
(22:10:40) aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#When.2FHow
(22:10:48) aiarakoa_ES: not entirely
(22:10:57) K`Tetch_us: bad storms, had to unplug everything
(22:11:10) ***osh_DK also just edited http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance#How with a proposal
(22:12:02) aiarakoa_ES: let me move the when to the Pirate Manifesto's main page
(22:12:12) aiarakoa_ES: (at a glance is just to check each pirate party's ideology)
(22:12:16) aiarakoa_ES: :)
(22:13:08) osh_DK: makes sense
(22:13:31) osh_DK: We are still discussing, Andrew
(22:14:25) osh_DK: though I have to leave (at least half-way) in 45 minutes, as we need to get our new website for PP DK up around midnight
(22:15:41) aiarakoa_ES: http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto#When.2FHow
(22:16:07) aiarakoa_ES: well
(22:16:11) aiarakoa_ES: as I said before
(22:16:17) aiarakoa_ES: I propose to use the following week
(22:16:32) aiarakoa_ES: for each pirate party to internally discuss about the voting conditions
(22:16:40) aiarakoa_ES: (quorums, majorities, vetoes & other issues)
(22:17:00) aiarakoa_ES: and also to prepare the background to the start of the First Draft development
(22:17:10) osh_DK: I agree, Carlos
(22:17:36) osh_DK: but we need to propose some voting rules, or we will get no discussion
(22:18:13) osh_DK: I edited http://int.piratenpartei.de/Pirate_Manifesto_parties_at_a_glance#How with what I think we might agree here
(22:19:18) aiarakoa_ES: may you explain last point?
(22:19:26) aiarakoa_ES: "There should be some way for a national PP to indicate that a particular amendment is needed for them to be able to ratify the final document."
(22:20:46) K`Tetch_us: something like the swedish abolition of patents - thats not a good idea from my experiance (as I actually have patents)
(22:21:30) K`Tetch_us: I've seen the good and the bad
(22:21:49) aiarakoa_ES: yes Andrew
(22:21:57) aiarakoa_ES: there surely will be controversy about that
(22:22:09) aiarakoa_ES: I've been studying each pirate party's stances
(22:22:15) aiarakoa_ES: there are some common points
(22:22:20) aiarakoa_ES: others with nuances
(22:22:20) K`Tetch_us: as with copyright, done well, they work, done wrong, we have the current mess
(22:22:39) aiarakoa_ES: and few with controversy, though few is more than none
(22:23:31) osh_DK: Sometimes a PP may just want something in the Pirate Manifesto, at other times something is absolutely needed for the PP to ratify the final document
(22:24:04) osh_DK: I would like it to be possible to indicate this, so we know if we have a blocking issue
(22:24:48) aiarakoa_ES: so with those points
(22:25:03) aiarakoa_ES: (which, as I said, I would move to the Pirate Manifesto page instead of the at a glance page)
(22:25:17) aiarakoa_ES: you aim to give some points to be discussed within each pirate party
(22:25:17) osh_DK: (of course)
(22:25:25) aiarakoa_ES: to be able to have a profitable session next week
(22:25:29) aiarakoa_ES: is it?
(22:25:49) aiarakoa_ES: ok :)
(22:25:52) aiarakoa_ES: Andrew
(22:25:56) osh_DK: exactly, the more concrete a proposal we come up with, the more discussion we get
(22:26:01) aiarakoa_ES: what do you think about those starting points?
(22:26:33) aiarakoa_ES: draco?
(22:26:36) aiarakoa_ES: sikevux?
(22:26:40) aiarakoa_ES: roderick?
(22:26:44) aiarakoa_ES: core-tx?
(22:28:15) K`Tetch_us: just lokoing over it atm
(22:37:42) aiarakoa_ES: one more thing
(22:37:55) aiarakoa_ES: apart from the attending people analysing Ole's proposal
(22:38:13) aiarakoa_ES: do you have any inconvenient in having next meeting on wednesday instead of thursday?
(22:38:29) ***osh_DK has no problem with that
(22:38:37) aiarakoa_ES: I work on thursday night so I wouldn't be able to attend, however i would be able if the session would be held on wednesday
(22:38:59) osh_DK: I think we discussed this last week
(22:39:53) aiarakoa_ES: yes but I think we didn't set the date for the next meeting
(22:40:06) aiarakoa_ES: that's the reason for me to ask for that :)
(22:41:05) osh_DK: Anybody complaining about wednesday next week?
(22:42:58) K`Tetch_us: should be ok
(22:43:18) K`Tetch_us: might be my last meeting ;-)
(22:43:20) osh_DK: Damn, a security update for Drupal - and we have to go live with the new website around midnight
(22:43:32) osh_DK: your last, Andrew?
(22:44:06) K`Tetch_us: next wednesday night is the election meeting for the party, if I'm not upheld as administrator, then I can't exactly continue to represent
(22:44:35) osh_DK: ah, ok - I hope you will still be active anyway
(22:45:39) K`Tetch_us: if I don't get upheld (unlikley since theres no-one running against me) i'd see about taking over pip and doing the work there
(22:45:43) K`Tetch_us: as we talked about last week
(22:46:01) osh_DK: you mean ppi?
(22:46:27) aiarakoa_ES: so
(22:46:49) aiarakoa_ES: with the points to be discussed next wednesday already set
(22:47:03) aiarakoa_ES: having set deadlines for each Pirate Manifesto stage
(22:47:16) aiarakoa_ES: and having set date and ... time? for next meeting
(22:47:23) aiarakoa_ES: (again 20:00 CEST?)
(22:47:48) aiarakoa_ES: would we be able to conclude this session (after setting the time for next session)
(22:47:49) aiarakoa_ES: ?
(22:48:03) osh_DK: I think so
(22:48:35) aiarakoa_ES: andrew?
(22:48:40) aiarakoa_ES: do you agree with 18:00 UTC?
(22:49:19) osh_DK: Will you send a mail to the list with the results from tonight (Deadlines, and voting, so they can be discussed), and the time/date for the next meeting?
(22:49:30) aiarakoa_ES: yes
(22:49:32) aiarakoa_ES: I will
(22:49:41) aiarakoa_ES: don't know if tonight or tomorrow morning
(22:49:47) aiarakoa_ES: anyway, I will :)
(22:50:47) osh_DK: When we have our new PP DK site up in a few hours I'll also send a mail to the list - asking for a support statement in the international discussion forum
(22:51:03) aiarakoa_ES: support statement?
(22:51:40) osh_DK: Yeah, just something simple like "nice you are now present in DK too"
(22:52:19) K`Tetch_us: carlos - when are you aiming to start with collection of signatures?
(22:53:02) aiarakoa_ES: actually we started in june
(22:53:08) aiarakoa_ES: though we hadn't made it public
(22:53:17) K`Tetch_us: you ready to make it public?
(22:53:23) aiarakoa_ES: we expect to have our best results in september/october
(22:53:29) aiarakoa_ES: when the academic year begins
(22:53:46) aiarakoa_ES: (tons of universitary students giving us their signatures)
(22:54:11) aiarakoa_ES: ok Ole, I'll greet you as required :)
(22:54:24) aiarakoa_ES: We made it public last monday
(22:54:42) aiarakoa_ES: also opened a mail address for people to send us their signatures via ordinary mail
(22:55:07) K`Tetch_us: ok
(22:56:57) aiarakoa_ES: well
(22:57:12) aiarakoa_ES: next session, Wednesday 16th of july, 20:00 CEST
(22:57:16) aiarakoa_ES: (18:00 UTC)
(22:57:32) aiarakoa_ES: with the voting system and the start of First Draft development as issues to be discussed :)
(22:57:41) aiarakoa_ES: see you, folks :)
(22:57:45) aiarakoa_ES is now known as aiaraOUT
(22:58:06) aiaraOUT: be good guys 
(22:58:13) aiaraOUT: or at least as good as possible xD
(23:00:12) osh_DK: see you